I often prayed for forgiveness but there were different obstacles
now I know, perhaps because of the sins of my forefathers
Perhaps that made stumbling me
That is the change. In former times I only thought that forgiveness would only be a matter between God and me..
but oh, I just remember the verse: forgive ye and ye shall be forgiven
In former times I thought: forgiveness are words then I am forgiven even if I do it again
Now I have changed: I think the real forgiveness the real acceptance of forgiveness the real repentence which is the condition for real forgiveness has as a consequence that I have the strength not to do it any more
I was thinking about forgiveness a few days ago. It is so hard to forgive and yet such a liberating thing once you have actually forgiven.
In 2002, my sister and I made a conscious act of actively forgiving every single person who had offended us, including ourselves (which is often the hardest). Every New Year's eve, I call someone I have been angry with and talk to them (they almost die of shock)
When I forgive (these includes people who owe me money, that means I stop expecting them to pay me back)I feel like a burden has been lifted from me - and my spirit is lightened.
As I am trying very hard to live by our Lord's words, to forgive the 7x7X7 thing. It is hard but doable. Although the memory of the hurt stays for a while, the releasing of the person who caused the hurt is not too hard (with the Spirit's help of course).
I had a powerful dream recently where I forgave someone who had hurt me very, very badly (ex-husband, nasty divorce and no, it wasn't because he cheated; real estate of all things... he turned out to essentially be a money-grubbing crook.)
He was also a flirtatious bastard and hurt me pretty badly with that too all while we were dating and it continued through marriage.
So in the dream, he was crying and telling me that he really did love me... and I said: 'I know you did, I know you loved me the only way you could, the only way you know how. But you know what? It wasn't good enough.'
And I'm not sure I even really said that to him in the dream, but I felt it, which is more important of course.
I sure felt good after that dream. And I -almost- feel like I could face him today and forgive him, whether I said it out loud or not.
So what I learned is this: forgiveness is not coming from a weak place, it is coming from a very powerful place. That is a life changing concept if you ask me.
There are other people I wish I could forgive, but I'm not there yet... I'll keep dreaming... ;)
First of all, let me thank you for discussing this. It brought a lot of truths to me.
Here's my 2cents, it took a while for me to understand and organize my thoughts on these (I'm still not even sure if it makes sense).
What does it take to forgive?
1. The need for sincere repentance (apology + change + effort/s to undo or lessen the damages).
It is difficult to forgive people when we can still see and feel the damage that they caused. A sincere apology is more than just saying sorry, it takes humility and admission of wrongdoing. It is also an admission of their accountability to the damage that they have caused. Any effort on the offender's part that could lessen the damage will alleviate the anger that prevents us from forgiving. It redeems our ego, it renews trust and it begs for another chance.
2. Passion for peace and freedom. Sometimes, anger is so great that it keeps nagging in our minds - day in and day out. It becomes a spiritual baggage that keeps getting heavier whenever we think about it. We tend to indulge in self-pity. A lot of times, we think of things that we can do to seek revenge. We imagine things that further fuel our anger and makes “not forgiving” justifiable. Most of the time, anger limits our own existence too - we avoid people and places that bring back bad memories.
Some of us would rather forgive than to go through all these (which, IMO, is very understandable).
3. Justice. Some people find satisfaction when they see their offenders getting punished for the crime that they committed. It is a form of compensation, a feeling of justice being granted to them. And sometimes, they forgive.
4.Fulfillment in life, counteracting the damage, capitalizing on what we have and what we can do.
We just turn our backs on them. We focus on our own selves. We achieve things without them. We move on. After a while, we find no more time to dwell on the anger that we once harbored, it had become too immaterial. A tiny speck. Then we decide to forget because we are either too busy or too happy to allow these “immaterial specks” to affect us any further.
5.For some of us who trust The Word:
“..forgive 7x70 times…” “Make peace with your enemies before you go to the synagogue” “…and forgive us our wrongs, as we forgive those who have done wrong to us.” “Vengeance is mine”, says the Lord.
And so we lift our burdens to God. And forgive our offenders.
There are many other ways and reasons to forgive.
IMHO, the bottom line is addressing our need to "feel" good. Be affirmed of our worth. Regain self-respect. Self-preservation. Peace of Mind.
I personally experienced #4 and in some cases, #5. And that's how it changed my entire perspective in life.
Forgiveness presupposes "sin" and its attendant guilt. In order for us to learn forgiveness /or to forgive is we must have the desire or to learn and ask forgiveness for what we have sin to the Father.
And for the right prospective on forgiveness, we must go to God's Word and stay there--the Bible is God's foremost communications to us on this subject.
Forgiveness is also a command by the Lord to make that choice. not only should you choose that route for your health or for your well being but you are commanded by the Lord---God's commandments are always and this one is no exception for everyone.
Matthew 6:14-15 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Ms. E-love: Yes, forgiveness of sins is one of many things God asks of us in scripture. I guess what we're all trying to figure out is: How to do it? Since forgiveness involves how we feel, feelings don't seem to respond instantaneously to commands, even when the commands come from God.
I think I have learned to let go of things I have blamed others for in the past. I feel as if it was my karma to attract certain people. However unpleasant the encounter, I was destined to learn something from it, forgive them, or choose to encounter it (perhaps with someone else), again, and again, and again.
Self-forgiveness is the greatest lesson I have learned. In my mind, it goes hand in hand with self love. I stumble and fall, and repeat the same mistakes. I can choose to stay down and hate myself, or get up and try again.
I grew up in a Hindu family. I studied Christianity in grade, middle school. In college and beyond, I tried to learn a bit about Buddhism and Islam.
I am no religion, but probably adapt a lot of personal beliefs from Hinduism and Buddhism.
Forgiveness? Well, I was raised Catholic, so I sure heard that word thrown around a lot. Never saw much of it happening, though. And, when I needed it the most, when I goddamned begged for it from my family and from my (then) church, it was the last thing I got.
So I'm not big on "forgiveness". It's one of those feel-good words people throw around to make themselves feel good and even to make themselves feel superior to other people. It's never about the person they're supposedly forgiving.
I'm spritual and I don't know if I would say religious.
But after going to church last year on Easter Sunday, the pastor urged everyone to go out and forgive someone. That someone ended up being my father, whom I hadn't spoken to in over 7 years. I felt so much better and now my father and I are starting over again. It feels so good to have a grudge out of the way.
I have hardened my heart in the past, and told myself I wasn't going to give people another chance once they broke my trust, but then I did give them another chance, and they made sure I didn't regret it.
Lately I've worried about forgiveness though. I'm on the receiving end of needing forgiveness, but I wonder if it's enough. Usually when I was well with God I was well with all. But God is all, how can I feel out of sync with someone because they won't speak to me? I can forgive myself, but I can't forget the disparity between what I let go and what I need to change in my life and in their eyes. There is a schism between who I want to be and who I still am because of what I've done and what that has done to me. I need forgiveness and acceptance, because I'm sorry in my heart for hurting someone. They told me they had forgiven me, but our relationship is ruined. Can forgiveness sometimes be incomplete? I have lost them. I wonder if the problem isn't so much the need for forgiveness, as remembering what it is that we need forgiveness for and changing that. The spirit of willingness is welcome, but if it has no objective, it has no direction. It is one thing to forgive. To forgive is a mental step towards recovery. I find the body and the brain still take time though. I have learned that I must be more willing to endure things patiently and avoid situations that call for forgiveness. Plus, just because I have been forgiven, doesn't make the offence passable. As I get older I cannot be so reckless anymore, because there are only so many times I can ask for forgiveness and respect myself. At the same time, I realize how much more I must forgive others, to bring them back to me and repair the damage that I also share, at their abuses. It is not a trade; forgiveness for forgiveness, but it is a resource we all depend on. We need to forgive so many things and be forgiven. The change is that I accept this now, but I cannot forget.
It's not like I go around withholding forgiveness. It's more like I live my life and let other people live theirs, and as long as they're not messing with me, I don't care what they do. If they mess with me, I'll let them know right up front and tell them to stop. If they don't stop, I walk and make sure they can't get near me again.
It's protecting yourself. You have to protect yourself. People who go on about forgiveness are just in it for themselves. It's what they do for themselves, it's not what they're doing for the person who wronged them.
And then there are those horrible people who go around making you feel like you have to crawl to them for forgiveness, but when you get some distance and some perspective on things, you realize they were the one who ought to have been asking you for forgiveness, and not the other way around.
It all seems so superficial and self-aggrandizing in the end, and a complete waste of time. Just live your life and keep your eyes straight ahead and don't let people take advantage of you, and there's no need for forgiveness on anyone's part. Live and let live.
I am a little bit sad about this anonymous comment. It is like reading in the bible - after Kain had killed his brother - and God asked him: where is your brother and he said:
"am I the shepherd of my brother?"
but this was all to pretending that he was innocent. Don't hope that this is the case with you, utilisateur anonymous.
I know, what you want to tell, but either you ARE hard in your heart or you pretend being hard because you have a very soft inner being.
But that is not the way of God. Jesus prayed even for forgiveness for the guilt of others: Father, forgive them (because I also forgive them, because I am dying for them) cause they do not know what they are doing
In response to anonynous, I think we are not responsible for what anyone else does. We are only accountable for how we act/react to what happens in our life. Forgiveness is a gift we give to ourselves. When we recognize the "wrong" we or others have done, we judge. We have been asked not to judge because rarely, if ever, are we aware of the entire picture and our judgments are for the benefit of the ego, not our spirit selves. We are expected to make mistakes and wrong choices in life. What counts is the intent behind our actions, not the actions. Since no one can tell what my intent was, it requires a judgment be made. This, again, only satisfies the ego. Anonymous, allow others to make mistakes by not judging and don't judge yourself. You are a child of God and always loved.
Matt, but when I recognize that the other person says that I have acted bad and the other person is angry/sad though I have had good motives or even more if I hadn't
then you should feel sad and say: I'm sorry (with explanation or without - without justifying myself).
So you restore peace.
When going to the altar of God and you remember that your brother has something against you - even if you yourself have nothing against him, then don't give your offering at the altar but reconceliate with your brother and don't be too selfish/proud to say sorry:
if your motives were good you can say: I am very sad that you obviously think that I did that and that with motives of hatred or so...
I think being able and saying: Forgive me is one of the greatest gifts of heaven and even if the other one says: I can't/don't want to forgive you: forgiving this hard-heart attitude which hurts myself and continuing to be friendly to him not only in words but in acts Heidi
1 Cor 13:11 quote is pretty inaccurate it should have been "When I was a child I spoke like a child, thought like a child, reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I struggle in my mind with childish ways, acted immaturely and I wish I could give up childish ways and as I change they seem to change with me...”
This is why I think Catholicism has gotten as selfish and self-obsessed as any New Age 'religion' you can think of.
When you read the parable of the Prodigal Son, the father isn't forgiving the son because it makes the father feel good. The father forgives the son because he loves him and wants him back. It's a welcoming act, not a selfish feel-good-about-me act.
Am I 'innocent'? Hell, no. But I'm not pretending to be. I was the one who asked for forgiveness, even though I wasn't nearly as guilty as everyone needed me to be so they could continue on this little journey that had become all about themselves. Am I trying to cover my butt by saying I'm not my brother's keeper? Nope. I just don't want to be anyone's keeper, nor do I want anyone to be mine. I think that part of scripture has done more damage in this world than almost any other.
Free will means free will. You start throwing that 'keeper' nonsense in, and all of a sudden people start to think their will supercede's other people's.
I'm not saying turn your back on people in need. But I am saying to let people live their lives.
That's been a real issue for me, but I've discovered over the years that unchanneled rage hurts me more than the object of my rage. A friend of mine reminded me of the Bible quote about forgiving..oh it's a certain number of times. I tried what she did. I had a string of beads and said, "I forgive.....' as i looped around the beads. As the number of times increased, I felt more peaceful. The only person I've not been able to do that with is my husband. I'm trapped here due to my health and inability to now earn money. He's a screamer and an insulter. I've not come to terms with that.
Paul I just read the disclaimer at the very bottom. I would not want my comment about my husband to become public other than in this blog unless it was totally anonymous.
Pris, not to worry. I doubt very much I'll be making any sort of use of comments here, and if I somehow ever do, will certainly make yours anonymous. And if you just say never to use it at all, I won't.
Anonymous, do you have an spiritual father or a spiritual mother?
I had a sin of which I couldn't get rid of during eight years because in former times I practised this sin 20 years.
But during the last eight years (1994-2002) I started confessing it again and again to my spiritual fathers and during the last period I had a spiritual mother. These three persons fought for me in prayer. Every time I fell I confessed it and then they prayed with me. I got to know them in 1994. I knew I wouldn't succeed on my own. It went a little bit better and better but - eight years!!! you see... it was hard! Often I thought: may I succeed in overcoming this sin on a day at the end of my life or never? These three persons live a holy life. So I trusted them again and again and trusted God and his promise that when two or three pray together he will hear and the prayer of the innocent he will hear And I know these three: they are innocent! They all have experienced a real change in their lives. The spiritual mother not so obviously because she was more or less of a good character even before she found Christ but He has completed still her character. The other one is a pastor but before becoming a pastor he often screamed at his wife and was bad with her. Then he met Jesus Christ personally and he more and more knew: I cannot continue to treat my wife badly. He also had a spiritual father to whom he confessed and after his life really changed he became a pastor. The third spiritual father: in former times he was a bad bad alcoholic, he often was drunken and didn't care for his family and had many many debts. He was hopeless until the day that somebody told him of Christ and took him to a congregation where he heard of Christ an accepted him as his personal saviour. I must ask him HOW he was delivered of alcohol but he always said to me: Heidi, God has succeeded to set me free - so will he do with you... don't give up...
and I want to tell you, Anonymous, this too:
don't give up
just go the way if you don't have any spiritual father or mother who lead a real HOLY life, then pray that God will bring you into contact with such (a) person(s) God hears prayer and the one who will seek HIM from his whole heart (as whole or half-whole as your heart is... as good as you can...) this one WILL find Him!
Me too, I have not yet found 100% the complete peace of mind and heart and soul in accordance to God but I am seeking
go on, Anonymous, go on seeking go on searching
don't give up
when we confess our sins so he is faithful and right to forgive us of them and to cleanse us from ALL iniquity
I want to experience this, too, in my life, Anonymous.
In the beginning, I confessed only some little things but one time after the other God showed me more and more hidden sins even bigger ones time after time
Very important to confess sins not only to God but to a holy person whom I trust and who has the authority (spiritual authority) to pray and God hears ...not that this person is sticked to the same sins... or still to other things and is not free indeed this will not function
a person who will not tell anybody what you entrusted him
So, I wish you, Anonymous and I pray for you that you will find such a confidential person
and that you will see that day in your life where you feel accepted by God and KNOW deep down in your heart my sins are forgiven
and God has begun something new within me I feel a little bit that I am no longer that awful person that I have been
and I will trust and fight for it
that this feeling and knowledge of beeing innocent in the eyes of God will grow and grow,
Anonymous, God may accord your prayer
Finally a song for you of Psalm 51 of Keith Green:
Create in me a clean heart o God and a new upright spirit within me
Create in me a clean heart o God and a new upright spirit within me
Cast me not away from thy presence o Lord Take not thy Holy Spirit from me Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation
To be honest .. I see forgiveness is a cure to us not to others .. I mean i used to say it is so hard to forgive .. how can i forgive ? but the truth is, we find it hard to heal from the inside .. forgiveness is easy .. to me it is .. Pain makes it hard to forgive .. but forgiveness is just a word with a feeling from the inside : it doesn't matter to me what you did to me , i will move on .. So EMOTIONS are essential and dangerous .. Before i could never forgive easily .. Now i just heal myself by myself and i get stronger every single time . But then again feelings, makes it a hurdle .. As long i stil can control my heart by my mind and have a war with my inner-self till it settles, then yes no problem .. i can forgive ..
36 Comments:
I just had a dream about forgiveness last night.
I often prayed for forgiveness
but there were different obstacles
now I know, perhaps
because of the sins of my forefathers
Perhaps that made stumbling me
That is the change.
In former times I only thought
that forgiveness would only be a matter between God and me..
but oh, I just remember the verse:
forgive ye
and ye shall be forgiven
In former times I thought:
forgiveness are words
then I am forgiven
even if I do it again
Now I have changed:
I think
the real forgiveness
the real acceptance of forgiveness
the real repentence which is the condition for real forgiveness
has as a consequence
that I have the strength
not to do it any more
all the other things
are
partial forgiveness
I was thinking about forgiveness a few days ago. It is so hard to forgive and yet such a liberating thing once you have actually forgiven.
In 2002, my sister and I made a conscious act of actively forgiving every single person who had offended us, including ourselves (which is often the hardest). Every New Year's eve, I call someone I have been angry with and talk to them (they almost die of shock)
When I forgive (these includes people who owe me money, that means I stop expecting them to pay me back)I feel like a burden has been lifted from me - and my spirit is lightened.
As I am trying very hard to live by our Lord's words, to forgive the 7x7X7 thing. It is hard but doable. Although the memory of the hurt stays for a while, the releasing of the person who caused the hurt is not too hard (with the Spirit's help of course).
Well... this is an interesting topic.
I had a powerful dream recently where I forgave someone who had hurt me very, very badly (ex-husband, nasty divorce and no, it wasn't because he cheated; real estate of all things... he turned out to essentially be a money-grubbing crook.)
He was also a flirtatious bastard and hurt me pretty badly with that too all while we were dating and it continued through marriage.
So in the dream, he was crying and telling me that he really did love me... and I said: 'I know you did, I know you loved me the only way you could, the only way you know how. But you know what? It wasn't good enough.'
And I'm not sure I even really said that to him in the dream, but I felt it, which is more important of course.
I sure felt good after that dream. And I -almost- feel like I could face him today and forgive him, whether I said it out loud or not.
So what I learned is this: forgiveness is not coming from a weak place, it is coming from a very powerful place. That is a life changing concept if you ask me.
There are other people I wish I could forgive, but I'm not there yet... I'll keep dreaming... ;)
I think with maturity..Im more willing to stand aside and put the grudge I have inside and more willing to forgive....
I think the most hard part for me is to forgive those who are member of my family...
Paul hi...
First of all, let me thank you for discussing this. It brought a lot of truths to me.
Here's my 2cents, it took a while for me to understand and organize my thoughts on these (I'm still not even sure if it makes sense).
What does it take to forgive?
1. The need for sincere repentance (apology + change + effort/s to undo or lessen the damages).
It is difficult to forgive people when we can still see and feel the damage that they caused. A sincere apology is more than just saying sorry, it takes humility and admission of wrongdoing. It is also an admission of their accountability to the damage that they have caused. Any effort on the offender's part that could lessen the damage will alleviate the anger that prevents us from forgiving. It redeems our ego, it renews trust and it begs for another chance.
2. Passion for peace and freedom.
Sometimes, anger is so great that it keeps nagging in our minds - day in and day out. It becomes a spiritual baggage that keeps getting heavier whenever we think about it. We tend to indulge in self-pity. A lot of times, we think of things that we can do to seek revenge. We imagine things that further fuel our anger and makes “not forgiving” justifiable. Most of the time, anger limits our own existence too - we avoid people and places that bring back bad memories.
Some of us would rather forgive than to go through all these (which, IMO, is very understandable).
3. Justice.
Some people find satisfaction when they see their offenders getting punished for the crime that they committed. It is a form of compensation, a feeling of justice being granted to them. And sometimes, they forgive.
4.Fulfillment in life, counteracting the damage, capitalizing on what we have and what we can do.
We just turn our backs on them. We focus on our own selves. We achieve things without them. We move on. After a while, we find no more time to dwell on the anger that we once harbored, it had become too immaterial. A tiny speck. Then we decide to forget because we are either too busy or too happy to allow these “immaterial specks” to affect us any further.
5.For some of us who trust The Word:
“..forgive 7x70 times…”
“Make peace with your enemies before you go to the synagogue”
“…and forgive us our wrongs, as we forgive those who have done wrong to us.”
“Vengeance is mine”, says the Lord.
And so we lift our burdens to God.
And forgive our offenders.
There are many other ways and reasons to forgive.
IMHO, the bottom line is addressing our need to "feel" good.
Be affirmed of our worth. Regain self-respect. Self-preservation. Peace of Mind.
I personally experienced #4 and in some cases, #5. And that's how it changed my entire perspective in life.
apologies for the length.
Forgiveness presupposes "sin" and its attendant guilt. In order for us to learn forgiveness /or to forgive is we must have the desire or to learn and ask forgiveness for what we have sin to the Father.
And for the right prospective on forgiveness, we must go to God's Word and stay there--the Bible is God's foremost communications to us on this subject.
Forgiveness is also a command by the Lord to make that choice. not only should you choose that route for your health or for your well being but you are commanded by the Lord---God's commandments are always and this one is no exception for everyone.
Matthew 6:14-15 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
this is really interesting.i admire you for bringing such nice topics always. very nice blog indeed!
Ms. E-love: Yes, forgiveness of sins is one of many things God asks of us in scripture. I guess what we're all trying to figure out is: How to do it? Since forgiveness involves how we feel, feelings don't seem to respond instantaneously to commands, even when the commands come from God.
Thanks, Eden --
Paul, you write that the feelings aren't used to obey to commandments even if they come from God.
Good hint for me to work on!
That must change in my life
because the Word says for example:
Rejoice in the Lord always and once more I say to you: Rejoice!
Conclusion:
When I fight with my feelings
and I succeed to submit them under the will of God, then
I, myself
am able to forgive with my will
or do any other obedience
Idi, right, that's what I meant: it's a fight, as you say, a struggle. Feelings seldom change in an instant.
I think I have learned to let go of things I have blamed others for in the past. I feel as if it was my karma to attract certain people. However unpleasant the encounter, I was destined to learn something from it, forgive them, or choose to encounter it (perhaps with someone else), again, and again, and again.
Self-forgiveness is the greatest lesson I have learned. In my mind, it goes hand in hand with self love. I stumble and fall, and repeat the same mistakes. I can choose to stay down and hate myself, or get up and try again.
I grew up in a Hindu family. I studied Christianity in grade, middle school. In college and beyond, I tried to learn a bit about Buddhism and Islam.
I am no religion, but probably adapt a lot of personal beliefs from Hinduism and Buddhism.
Forgiveness? Well, I was raised Catholic, so I sure heard that word thrown around a lot. Never saw much of it happening, though. And, when I needed it the most, when I goddamned begged for it from my family and from my (then) church, it was the last thing I got.
So I'm not big on "forgiveness". It's one of those feel-good words people throw around to make themselves feel good and even to make themselves feel superior to other people. It's never about the person they're supposedly forgiving.
I'm spritual and I don't know if I would say religious.
But after going to church last year on Easter Sunday, the pastor urged everyone to go out and forgive someone. That someone ended up being my father, whom I hadn't spoken to in over 7 years. I felt so much better and now my father and I are starting over again. It feels so good to have a grudge out of the way.
Thanks church, I owe you one.
I have hardened my heart in the past, and told myself I wasn't going to give people another chance once they broke my trust, but then I did give them another chance, and they made sure I didn't regret it.
Lately I've worried about forgiveness though. I'm on the receiving end of needing forgiveness, but I wonder if it's enough. Usually when I was well with God I was well with all. But God is all, how can I feel out of sync with someone because they won't speak to me? I can forgive myself, but I can't forget the disparity between what I let go and what I need to change in my life and in their eyes. There is a schism between who I want to be and who I still am because of what I've done and what that has done to me. I need forgiveness and acceptance, because I'm sorry in my heart for hurting someone. They told me they had forgiven me, but our relationship is ruined. Can forgiveness sometimes be incomplete? I have lost them. I wonder if the problem isn't so much the need for forgiveness, as remembering what it is that we need forgiveness for and changing that. The spirit of willingness is welcome, but if it has no objective, it has no direction. It is one thing to forgive. To forgive is a mental step towards recovery. I find the body and the brain still take time though. I have learned that I must be more willing to endure things patiently and avoid situations that call for forgiveness. Plus, just because I have been forgiven, doesn't make the offence passable. As I get older I cannot be so reckless anymore, because there are only so many times I can ask for forgiveness and respect myself. At the same time, I realize how much more I must forgive others, to bring them back to me and repair the damage that I also share, at their abuses. It is not a trade; forgiveness for forgiveness, but it is a resource we all depend on. We need to forgive so many things and be forgiven. The change is that I accept this now, but I cannot forget.
It's not like I go around withholding forgiveness. It's more like I live my life and let other people live theirs, and as long as they're not messing with me, I don't care what they do. If they mess with me, I'll let them know right up front and tell them to stop. If they don't stop, I walk and make sure they can't get near me again.
It's protecting yourself. You have to protect yourself. People who go on about forgiveness are just in it for themselves. It's what they do for themselves, it's not what they're doing for the person who wronged them.
And then there are those horrible people who go around making you feel like you have to crawl to them for forgiveness, but when you get some distance and some perspective on things, you realize they were the one who ought to have been asking you for forgiveness, and not the other way around.
It all seems so superficial and self-aggrandizing in the end, and a complete waste of time. Just live your life and keep your eyes straight ahead and don't let people take advantage of you, and there's no need for forgiveness on anyone's part. Live and let live.
I am a little bit sad about this anonymous comment.
It is like reading in the bible - after Kain had killed his brother -
and God asked him:
where is your brother
and he said:
"am I the shepherd of my brother?"
but this was all to pretending that he was innocent.
Don't hope that this is the case with you, utilisateur anonymous.
I know, what you want to tell,
but either you ARE hard in your heart
or you pretend being hard
because you have a very soft inner being.
But that is not the way of God.
Jesus prayed even for forgiveness for the guilt of others:
Father, forgive them
(because I also forgive them,
because I am dying for them)
cause they do not know
what they are doing
In response to anonynous,
I think we are not responsible for what anyone else does. We are only accountable for how we act/react to what happens in our life.
Forgiveness is a gift we give to ourselves.
When we recognize the "wrong" we or others have done, we judge. We have been asked not to judge because rarely, if ever, are we aware of the entire picture and our judgments are for the benefit of the ego, not our spirit selves.
We are expected to make mistakes and wrong choices in life. What counts is the intent behind our actions, not the actions. Since no one can tell what my intent was, it requires a judgment be made. This, again, only satisfies the ego.
Anonymous, allow others to make mistakes by not judging and don't judge yourself. You are a child of God and always loved.
Matt, but when I recognize that the other person says that I have acted bad
and the other person is angry/sad
though I have had good motives
or even more if I hadn't
then you should feel sad and say: I'm sorry (with explanation or without - without justifying myself).
So you restore peace.
When going to the altar of God and you remember that your brother has something against you - even if you yourself have nothing against him,
then don't give your offering at the altar
but reconceliate with your brother and don't be too selfish/proud to say sorry:
if your motives were good you can say: I am very sad that you obviously think that I did that and that with motives of hatred or so...
I think being able and saying: Forgive me
is one of the greatest gifts of heaven
and even if the other one says:
I can't/don't want to forgive you:
forgiving this hard-heart attitude which hurts myself
and continuing to be
friendly to him
not only in words
but in acts
Heidi
what a question? We continuously change whether we like it or not - phyically, because physically spiritually...
1 Cor 13:11 quote is pretty inaccurate it should have been "When I was a child I spoke like a child, thought like a child, reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I struggle in my mind with childish ways, acted immaturely and I wish I could give up childish ways and as I change they seem to change with me...”
This is why I think Catholicism has gotten as selfish and self-obsessed as any New Age 'religion' you can think of.
When you read the parable of the Prodigal Son, the father isn't forgiving the son because it makes the father feel good. The father forgives the son because he loves him and wants him back. It's a welcoming act, not a selfish feel-good-about-me act.
Am I 'innocent'? Hell, no. But I'm not pretending to be. I was the one who asked for forgiveness, even though I wasn't nearly as guilty as everyone needed me to be so they could continue on this little journey that had become all about themselves. Am I trying to cover my butt by saying I'm not my brother's keeper? Nope. I just don't want to be anyone's keeper, nor do I want anyone to be mine. I think that part of scripture has done more damage in this world than almost any other.
Free will means free will. You start throwing that 'keeper' nonsense in, and all of a sudden people start to think their will supercede's other people's.
I'm not saying turn your back on people in need. But I am saying to let people live their lives.
That's been a real issue for me, but I've discovered over the years that unchanneled rage hurts me more than the object of my rage. A friend of mine reminded me of the Bible quote about forgiving..oh it's a certain number of times. I tried what she did. I had a string of beads and said, "I forgive.....' as i looped around the beads. As the number of times increased, I felt more peaceful. The only person I've not been able to do that with is my husband. I'm trapped here due to my health and inability to now earn money. He's a screamer and an insulter. I've not come to terms with that.
Paul
I just read the disclaimer at the very bottom. I would not want my comment about my husband to become public other than in this blog unless it was totally anonymous.
Pris, not to worry. I doubt very much I'll be making any sort of use of comments here, and if I somehow ever do, will certainly make yours anonymous. And if you just say never to use it at all, I won't.
By God's grace, it's now easier for me to forgive others knowing that God has forgiven me for my sins.
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I want desperately to be forgiven of my sins.
And I pray to be forgiven everyday.
But I still feel like an awful person
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This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous,
as you want to be forgiven
I suggest you to hear:
http://www.kwasizabantu.com/audio/A_word_for_you/archive.htm
Even though I deleted the comment about love
even though I had a dream
not only to love God
but also to fear him
your comment about the prodigal son
rested in my mind
Today the whole day
I tried to do everything by love
wholeheartedly and fine and nice
so when I am doing the good things
there is no more fear left
I remember a bible verse:
the complete love
casts out fear
Anonymous,
do you have an spiritual father or a spiritual mother?
I had a sin of which I couldn't get rid of during eight years because in former times I practised this sin 20 years.
But during the last eight years (1994-2002) I started confessing it again and again to my spiritual fathers and during the last period I had a spiritual mother.
These three persons fought for me in prayer.
Every time I fell I confessed it and then they prayed with me.
I got to know them in 1994.
I knew I wouldn't succeed on my own.
It went a little bit better and better but - eight years!!! you see... it was hard!
Often I thought: may I succeed in overcoming this sin on a day at the end of my life or never?
These three persons live a holy life.
So I trusted them again and again and trusted God and his promise that when two or three pray together he will hear
and the prayer of the innocent he will hear
And I know these three: they are innocent!
They all have experienced a real change in their lives.
The spiritual mother not so obviously because she was more or less of a good character even before she found Christ but He has completed still her character.
The other one is a pastor but before becoming a pastor he often screamed at his wife and was bad with her.
Then he met Jesus Christ personally and he more and more knew: I cannot continue to treat my wife badly. He also had a spiritual father to whom he confessed and after his life really changed he became a pastor.
The third spiritual father: in former times he was a bad bad alcoholic, he often was drunken and didn't care for his family and had many many debts. He was hopeless until the day that somebody told him of Christ and took him to a congregation where he heard of Christ an accepted him as his personal saviour.
I must ask him HOW he was delivered of alcohol but he always said to me:
Heidi, God has succeeded to set me free - so will he do with you... don't give up...
and I want to tell you, Anonymous, this too:
don't give up
just go the way
if you don't have any spiritual father or mother who lead a real HOLY life,
then pray that God will bring you into contact with such (a) person(s)
God hears prayer
and the one who will seek HIM from his whole heart (as whole or half-whole as your heart is... as good as you can...)
this one WILL find Him!
Me too, I have not yet found 100% the complete peace of mind and heart and soul in accordance to God
but I am seeking
go on, Anonymous,
go on seeking
go on searching
don't give up
when we confess our sins
so he is faithful and right
to forgive us of them
and to cleanse us
from ALL iniquity
I want to experience this, too,
in my life, Anonymous.
In the beginning, I confessed only some little things
but
one time after the other
God showed me more and more
hidden sins
even bigger ones
time after time
Very important to confess sins
not only to God
but to a holy person whom I trust
and who has the authority
(spiritual authority)
to pray and God hears
...not that this person
is sticked to the same sins...
or still to other things
and is not free indeed
this will not function
a person who will not tell anybody
what you entrusted him
So, I wish you, Anonymous
and I pray for you
that you will find
such a confidential person
and that you will
see that day
in your life
where you
feel accepted
by God
and KNOW
deep down in your heart
my sins are forgiven
and God has begun something new within me
I feel a little bit
that I am no longer
that awful person
that I have been
and I will trust
and fight for it
that this feeling
and knowledge
of beeing innocent
in the eyes of God
will grow and grow,
Anonymous, God may accord your prayer
Finally a song for you of Psalm 51 of Keith Green:
Create in me a clean heart
o God
and a new upright spirit within me
Create in me a clean heart
o God
and a new upright spirit within me
Cast me not away from thy presence o Lord
Take not thy Holy Spirit from me
Restore unto me
the joy of thy salvation
and a new upright spirit within me
Heidi
Hi Idi/Heidi - May I suggest continuing this discussion thread that you're directing to Anonymous on your blog?
We could just ask that Anonymous click on your "Idi" link should he/she or others wish to pursue this further with you...
I'm not presently doing any blogging though I do plan to get back to it.
Thanks!
Paul
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Thanks Idi! I do miss blogging though, and hope to get back to it soon...
Paul
Sorry again.
Enjoy your time-off
Make the most blessed time out of it
Forgiveness ..
To be honest .. I see forgiveness is a cure to us not to others .. I mean i used to say it is so hard to forgive .. how can i forgive ? but the truth is, we find it hard to heal from the inside .. forgiveness is easy .. to me it is .. Pain makes it hard to forgive .. but forgiveness is just a word with a feeling from the inside : it doesn't matter to me what you did to me , i will move on .. So EMOTIONS are essential and dangerous .. Before i could never forgive easily .. Now i just heal myself by myself and i get stronger every single time . But then again feelings, makes it a hurdle .. As long i stil can control my heart by my mind and have a war with my inner-self till it settles, then yes no problem .. i can forgive ..
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